Interesting article I ran across. I'm not saying they are all fact. Just passing it along.Seems whoever wrote it is a body weight exercise advocate because all the alternatives are body weight exercises which is fine by me but it seems like the people using these machines would already be at the gym so why not just use free weights?

Best Life Magazine: Body: The 10 Machines You Must Avoid at Your Gym (http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/best-body/10_Machines_You_Must_Avoid.shtml)

I'm not a big fan of machines because my screwed up head says you're just gonna do it wrong and hurt yourself so dont

however.... the MUST in the article is a problem for me...

But their alternatives doesnt give me warm fuzzies... I don't like the seated leg extension machine because it hurts my knee... but one legged squats? yeah not happening -it took me a year to do a normal squat...

Their lat pull downs? I don't lik ethat machine becuase it bothers my left shoulder... but the alternative .. I've done the incline pull ups -and they're easy and really get nothing out - not much middle ground... :D

i object to articles that tell people they shouldn't do something... Unless it's well something like playing in traffic or jumpingin front of trains...

Uhh...what machines are left? Seriously, that is ever major machine at my gym. I think calf raises (which probably compress your spine too much) and bicep curl (which probably put too much strain on your elbow tendons) are the only other major machines I can think of.

I don't really like using machines - all the leg ones hurt my knees and all the arm ones hurt my shoulders. My trainer told me "no pain, no gain" and I told him "screw off."

Uhh...what machines are left? Seriously, that is ever major machine at my gym.

That's the point. :)

there's a machine for calf raises?

the machine at the gym that really perplexes me is the one that you kneel on and it boost your body up - it's like a cheating pull up... i was watching someone on it yesterday... i really didn't get it :D

there's a machine for calf raises?

Yuppers. I actually use these machines. There are standing ones and seated ones.

the machine at the gym that really perplexes me is the one that you kneel on and it boost your body up - it's like a cheating pull up... i was watching someone on it yesterday... i really didn't get it :D

These are ok to progress someone into full blown pullups.

what does a calf raise machine do that a dumbbellin hand on a step doesnt?

Nevermind -I'm far too stupid

Wish I would have read this yesterday! haha. I just got a machine that has the first 4 in the list. hmm. There's just soooo much info out there. Depending on who you are talking to there's always going to be what's "right" and what's "wrong." Too many calories. Not enough calories. Pointless workouts. Pointless machines. I'm sorry, but I'm just so confused about what is good for me anymore. I'm seriously about to break down crying. :(

I think I'm a little emotional today. Forgive me...

Allows you to use more weight if need be. There's nothing wrong with a dumbbell in hand on step. But for me to really tax my calves appropriately, I would have to use dumbbells so heavy that my grip would give before my calves more than likely.

Different tools for the same muscle... neither is right or wrong.

what's right is what works for you at this point in time...

there's always more effective w ays of doing anything...

but you can do what you can do when you can do it... and if you've got something that will encourage you to work then well - do what works..

Starting somewhere is the objective... and not standing still...

Wish I would have read this yesterday! haha. I just got a machine that has the first 4 in the list. hmm. There's just soooo much info out there. Depending on who you are talking to there's always going to be what's "right" and what's "wrong." Too many calories. Not enough calories. Pointless workouts. Pointless machines. I'm sorry, but I'm just so confused about what is good for me anymore. I'm seriously about to break down crying. :(

I think I'm a little emotional today. Forgive me...

Don't feel like that. Machines in general are inferior to free weights. That's why I said to you yesterday in my journal what I said about the machine. It's a fine starting point. Eventually you're going to want to progress to free weights.

Training needs to be functional.

Functional to what?

For most around here, helping you strengthen movements that you do day in and day out is a great benefit. However, machines don't really allow for this. Where in real life are you affixed in a constant position forcing one or two muscles to work against an opposing force?

This isn't to say all machines are bad.

It's just that a majority of your training shouldn't be comprised of machine training in general.

Wish I would have read this yesterday! haha. I just got a machine that has the first 4 in the list. hmm. There's just soooo much info out there. Depending on who you are talking to there's always going to be what's "right" and what's "wrong." Too many calories. Not enough calories. Pointless workouts. Pointless machines. I'm sorry, but I'm just so confused about what is good for me anymore. I'm seriously about to break down crying. :(

I think I'm a little emotional today. Forgive me...

Well machines are better than nothing. Most of those injury warnings are overblown IMO. Freeweights are almost always going to be better and more effecient. I am sure you will benefit from the machine, if nothing else it may give you the confidence and security to get in the gym and tackle some real weights.

real weights??? as opposed to fake weights? :D

After a good cry and reading through what ya'll have said, I feel much better. I think I spent way too much time yesterday overloading my brain with info. I was seriously on this forum for over 10 hours yesterday (up until almost 3 a.m.) reading threads,sitckies,journals.... Deep breaths and hearing what ya'll have just said about doing what works at first ...but not staying there is sooo helpful. Thanks a bunch.

glad you're feeling better :)


see if you can get steve to flex for ya -that usually helps most peopel feel better :D he won't do it for me but maybe he'lldo it for ya :D

Well machines are better than nothing. Most of those injury warnings are overblown IMO. Freeweights are almost always going to be better and more effecient. I am sure you will benefit from the machine, if nothing else it may give you the confidence and security to get in the gym and tackle some real weights.


Thanks, and you're right about the confidence factor! I have a gym (Cajun Fitness) about 5 min. down the road that I eventually do want to step foot in. Until then, I do have some adjustable dumbbells that came with the machine, so I'll use those interchangeably.

glad you're feeling better :)


see if you can get steve to flex for ya -that usually helps most peopel feel better :D he won't do it for me but maybe he'lldo it for ya :D

haha! :blush5:

I used to use these machine about 2 years ago when I was a member at the Y.

Some of them were uncomfortable... Some were just kind of weird, and others I thought gave me a good workout.

People can argue either side of a point 'till the cows come home. I'm sure if you searched, you could find an article argueing the opposite of this one. I think you should just find what you like and what works.

Right now I'm just using my own bodyweight! :)

-N-

After a good cry and reading through what ya'll have said, I feel much better. I think I spent way too much time yesterday overloading my brain with info. I was seriously on this forum for over 10 hours yesterday (up until almost 3 a.m.) reading threads,sitckies,journals.... Deep breaths and hearing what ya'll have just said about doing what works at first ...but not staying there is sooo helpful. Thanks a bunch.

That's a lot of reading. If you spent a lot of time in the stickies... you've got entirely too much 'Steve' in ya... and that sounds worse than it's intended, lol.

Here's an important thing to keep in mind, always, as you travel down this journey of health and fitness. Don't get sucked into the extreme mentality that many fitness articles and professionals will lead you to believe. There are VERY few black/white, either/or, right/wrong factors in this. It doesn't work like that.

The only time these extremes pop up is when you're doing something that will obviously lead to injury.

Beyond that, simply jump in and get started. Don't lose the hunger or stop the pursuit for knowledge. As you begin working out consistently, you'll see improvements. You have to. Anything above and beyond what your body is used to will cause improvement. As you progress physically and mentally you will surely find approaches that work best for you. It's a never-ending process of learning and trial & error. That can't be stressed enough.

So many people come in here and read about what ideally should be happening. It's rare when what's ideal is also what's real. The reality is this: Novices can't be expected to do everything optimally.

i) they aren't familiar with what's optimal
ii) they aren't ready for what's optimal

The bottom line, as noted above, is starting. Be confident. Be smart. If something doesn't seem right, don't do it. And ask questions. Be flexible in your thinking and your approach.

you've got entirely too much 'Steve' in ya... and that sounds worse than it's intended, lol.

I have never been more proud of you than Iam at this moment :)

oh yeah and the rest of hwat you wrote was awesome :D

Yea, that part sounded pretty bad. Any sentence that has the words sticky, steve, and "in ya" is just ridiculous.

real weights??? as opposed to fake weights? :D

Smarty pants.

Yea, that part sounded pretty bad. Any sentence that has the words sticky, steve, and "in ya" is just ridiculous.
I'm slipping - i missed the sticky part :)

Smarty pants.

i wondered if i m isse the memo about saline weights or something :)

That's a lot of reading. If you spent a lot of time in the stickies... you've got entirely too much 'Steve' in ya... and that sounds worse than it's intended, lol.

Here's an important thing to keep in mind, always, as you travel down this journey of health and fitness. Don't get sucked into the extreme mentality that many fitness articles and professionals will lead you to believe. There are VERY few black/white, either/or, right/wrong factors in this. It doesn't work like that.

The only time these extremes pop up is when you're doing something that will obviously lead to injury.

Beyond that, simply jump in and get started. Don't lose the hunger or stop the pursuit for knowledge. As you begin working out consistently, you'll see improvements. You have to. Anything above and beyond what your body is used to will cause improvement. As you progress physically and mentally you will surely find approaches that work best for you. It's a never-ending process of learning and trial & error. That can't be stressed enough.

So many people come in here and read about what ideally should be happening. It's rare when what's ideal is also what's real. The reality is this: Novices can't be expected to do everything optimally.

i) they aren't familiar with what's optimal
ii) they aren't ready for what's optimal

The bottom line, as noted above, is starting. Be confident. Be smart. If something doesn't seem right, don't do it. And ask questions. Be flexible in your thinking and your approach.

lol. I did come across a lot of 'steve-isms'! It was all great information, but I should have just paced myself and tried not to learn it all in one sitting! I also really need to keep in mind (which is what you've been saying all along) that everyone is different and is in their own place in the race. I'm further behind than a lot of the people that you were giving councel to in the stuff I was reading...and I think I let that thought escape me at some point in my delirium last night..err.. this morning.

Well, the bottom line for me is: Thank you. I know i keep saying that, but seriously...I am so grateful to people like ya'll who are on here, selflessly helping others out and spreading "the know." Thanks for not hoarding what you've learned through experience and through others. I don't know you very well, but a big appreciative hug would be in order right about now :)

I don't know you very well, but a big appreciative hug would be in order right about now

some people wil ldo anything to cop a feel :D

Good girl :D

Haha...

You're welcome. Best to ya!

some people wil ldo anything to cop a feel :D

Good girl :D

lol! hahha! I'll go ahead and make it a group hug b/c that goes for you too Mal and edco! ..:grouphug:

not for a "fee" ...but for the stuff i just said...!! :blush5:

I meant "FEEL" oh my...

I'm not a big fan of machines because my screwed up head says you're just gonna do it wrong and hurt yourself so dont ..

Isn't that the whole point of using machines as opposed to free weights - so you don't hurt yourself?

Like this quote about the seated press machine...

2 Seated Military Press
It puts undue stress on the shoulders, and the movement doesn’t let you use your hips to assist your shoulders, which is the natural way to push something overhead.

Use your hips to assist your shoulders?

If you need to use your hips to push a weight overhead then for sure you're using too much weight and for sure you're going to screw up your shoulders. (Not to mention that you're going to screw up your back also). :)

Which the Seated Military Press on the machine prevents.

If you need to use your hips to push a weight overhead then for sure you're using too much weight and for sure you're going to screw up your shoulders. (Not to mention that you're going to screw up your back also).

The reason the overhead press is such a great exercise is that it works the body as one piece. Your trunk & legs stabilize the weight while your shoulders, upper-chest & arms press the weight overhead. So basically the machine less efficient (I wont go as far as say dangerous) Because you are using a very small muscle group to do the job that your entire body should be involved in.

Isn't that the whole point of using machines as opposed to free weights - so you don't hurt yourself?
.
I'm a klutz - I have powers and skills most mortals dont have...

Mark Rippetoe would argue against your point.

You should watch the whole thing but at around the 50 second mark will suffice for my purpose:

YouTube - Weighted Press Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiuM8vi38RQ)

This is all moot, however. The question is, should a novice start with machines so they don't hurt themselves with free weights?

In my experience, it completely depends.

If someone has absolutely no strength, body awareness, confidence, coach/trainer, etc.... possibly. It usually requires all the above though for me to make that suggestion.

If someone is capable though, I think it's best to start out learning right from the get-go with free weights.... obviously with correct mechanics. This is hard if you don't have good resources to decipher what correct mechanics look/feel like and/or someone with an experienced eye correcting flaws. Be that as it may, starting from scratch with free weights tends to hinder any negative proclivities that carryover from solely using machines.

With all that said, there's a time and a place for everything. I use machines almost every day that I train. They aren't evil, which I know nobody in this thread is saying. I'm just making it apparent.

The reason the overhead press is such a great exercise is that it works the body as one piece. Your trunk & legs stabilize the weight while your shoulders, upper-chest & arms press the weight overhead. So basically the machine less efficient (I wont go as far as say dangerous) Because you are using a very small muscle group to do the job that your entire body should be involved in.

That lack of efficiency, as you put it, though could lead to injury. Why machines have a bad rap (is it wrap or rap?) is most people who start with machines in the average gym setting never leave the machines. When you never leave the machines, often times you neglect stabilization and proprioception. When neglect things like this, you weaken some links in the chain. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Mark Rippetoe would argue against your point.

Was that my point or Doc's? I gots no speakers at work.


That lack of efficiency, as you put it, though could lead to injury. Why machines have a bad rap (is it wrap or rap?) is most people who start with machines in the average gym setting never leave the machines. When you never leave the machines, often times you neglect stabilization and proprioception. When neglect things like this, you weaken some links in the chain. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Agreed. When I said "I wont go as far as say dangerous" I meant I didnt want to sound like "Don't use that machine you will get injured" Injuries can and do happen everywhere. If you ever need to make a sudden stop on the elyptical you may get injured.

proprioception

lol I had to look that one up. Thanks for the vocabulary boost.

Then, of course, there are machines, then there are machines.

True, some of those pieces of equipment found in the old YMCA type gyms were potentially dangerous.

But the newer stuff put out by top line mfgs. like Atlantis or Hammer Strength are ergonomically designed so you can't hurt yourself.

Well, lowers the chances of that happening, but I've seen some pretty strange movements being performed on them like the person was having a seizure or something.

(Ergonomic - that the right word?)

(Ergonomic - that the right word?)

pro·pri·o·cep·tion (prō'prē-ō-sěp'shən)
n. The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself.

er·go·nom·ics (ûr'gə-nŏm'ĭks)
n.

1. (used with a sing. verb) The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort. Also called biotechnology, human engineering, human factors engineering.
2. (used with a pl. verb) Design factors, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort: The ergonomics of the new office were felt to be optimal.

Lets all improve our vocabularies

nice tips! helps...