I do lifting about 2-3 times a week during my gym routine and my question is this: what are the benefits of free weights vs. machines?

I always hear that free weights are good because you are forced to stabilize the weight. Machines on the other hand, I use when I am alone at the gym so I do not need to risk injury. But, what are the benefits to each, if any?

Free weights = good
machines = bad

I may have over simplified. I will assume you are a novice and that your primary goal is weight loss and muscle retention. So for you what would likely be best is a full body workout using compound exercises

This is a good one to start on
StrongLifts 5×5 Beginner Strength Training Program | StrongLifts.com (http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/)

Here is a beginners guide written for women

http://weight-loss.fitness.com/weight-loss-through-exercise/23738-getting-into-weight-training-female-friendly-guide.html

I think machines are good for beginners. It helps with form and builds a good foundation without stressing stabilizing muscles.

I think machines are good for beginners. It helps with form and builds a good foundation without stressing stabilizing muscles.

Stabilizing muscles are important though. They need to be stressed.

It really depends. Sometimes machines are the right place to start. Other times free weights are the right place to start. I'll say that free weights are ideal and if one is capable of starting with them, they should. But that doesn't make it the right first step into weight training in all situations.

I don't think machines "help with form" though.

I dont think I am a novice in terms of lifting but I do think I lack in knowledge of mechanics. I will review the links posted and hopefully find out more.

So far though, it seems like stability is the only real benefit of free weights.

Stability, balance, functionality, results applicable to the real world, free range of motion, etc, etc.

Read:

http://weight-loss.fitness.com/weight-loss-diary/8425-journey-not-destination-157.html#post228941

I agree with Steve that most machines will actually distort your range of motion and will do nothing to help balance. I run fitness bootcamps and in my boot camps we start with a foundation of body weight training (squats, push ups, modified pull ups, step ups, etc), then build upon those movements using free weights or other implements (dumbbells, kettlebells, bands, sandbags, etc).

I just think that most of the machines made were meant for two things:

Rehabilitation of a specific injury (early rehab) or
a very expensive coat rack.

I took a look at the 5x5 program and it is similar to what I am already doing which might be a good thing. The difference I noticed in the program is that the workout is essentially the same every week on each specific day. That type of structure isn't the way I like to do things but it does give me an idea on planning.

The link posted by Steve was a good read and definately answered my question. However, since originally posting this I have come up with another question.

I am not sure how experienced the trainers are at my gym (I have no reason at this point to doubt them) but I did over hear them on a few occasions talk about how lifting is better to do before cardio. Something about it will help with the fat loss if you do lifting before major cardio.

So, is this true? I did a search on Google and found many different opinions (though I can't say every site looked reputable).

Thanks again guys.

I prefer to lift before cardio.

In some instances with clients who need more cardio work, it's vice versa though.

There isn't a right or wrong.

There's only a right given the context of your situation.

If you don't have a lot of fat to lose, I suggest lifting before cardio.

I usually do cardio before lifting but I think I will try out lifting before cardio for a few weeks and see if there is a noticable difference.

If not I will continue as is mainly because of the amount of people lifting at the gym when I get there vs. when I am done with my 40 minutes of cardio.

The premise it this:

The closer you get to a 'normal' bf%, the more likely it is that you will lose muscle while dieting. To offset this potential, eating adequate protein and lifting weights effectively become much more important.

Weights are more intensive, generally speaking, than cardio. So doing weights before cardio, when your energy is max, is logical.

A fatter person is more concerned with expending energy than maintaining muscle. Muscle loss isn't really a concern for a fatter person. So they would prioritize things differently to focus on metabolic work instead of high intensity work.

Make sense?

I get it. So the idea is to maximize energy output in the area that yields the best results for the ultimate goal? So my goal is to gain muscle and lose what is left of the fat I had, meaning that lifting gets the energy priority.

As far as eating habits are concerned, should I now add additional calories/protein to my diet since I am now trying to gain muscle, burn fat and not necessarily lose weight? Or, am I taking the same weight loss calories and adding more protein to that?

Hopefully I am understanding everything correctly.

I get it. So the idea is to maximize energy output in the area that yields the best results for the ultimate goal?

Hmmm, sort of.

Look at it this way. When you have a lot of fat to lose, expending the most energy as possible every time you exercise is primary. High energy exercise expenditure comes from metabolic work. Think cardio or high rep, low rest weight training. There really isn't a need for worrying about putting true strength training in the primary spotlight since chances of losing muscle are slim to none when you've got all this fat.

Actually, let me go copy and paste something I typed in another thread that is related to this:

There is no either/or, good/bad, better/worse.

How you exercise is completely dependent on your current state and your goals.

Here's an example for you:

You have two women both looking to lose fat. One is 300 lbs and the other is 130 lbs.

In terms of weight lifting, the heavier woman would probably benefit more from the circuit type of training where you use high volumes of work using lighter weights and short rest. In this event, you're turning it more or less into another form of cardiovascular exercise with a hint of strength training. The reason this would be optimal for her is pretty simple: at this stage in the game, burning the most amount of calories is going to be the primary factor that will contribute to weight loss and circuit training is going to accomplish that better than your traditional strength training routine of heavier weights, lower reps, and more rest.

The lighter woman might be better off (IMO definitely would be better off) by sticking with the more traditional strength training stuff I mentioned above. Not b/c of caloric expenditure so much, but more for what this type of stimulus/training does to the body. Primarily, it triggers muscle maintenance.... it gives your body a reason to hold on to the muscle you currently have. The closer you get to an ideal weight, the more probable muscle loss becomes. This is an important concept. (a) Muscle keeps your metabolism nice and healthy and (b) I think one of the major things most women looking to get tone do wrong is move to lighter and lighter weights and higher and higher reps following the misconception that this sort of training causes toning.

Toning is a function of fat loss and muscle maintenance. Losing weight is easy, just create a caloric deficit. But genetically average people, especially women, who aren't carrying a lot of fat carry the big risk of losing muscle if they don't take precautionary action; one of those things is proper, traditional strength training. Which, as I said above, goes against what gets passed around traditionally as good advice.

In essence, for the lighter woman, weight lifting transforms from something that gets your heart rate going and expends calories to more of something that triggers muscle maintenance. For her, diet and cardio will be the primary players in terms of establishing the caloric deficit. Don't get me wrong, traditional strength training burns calories too, but it's primary purpose in the 'program' isn't that.

As far as eating habits are concerned, should I now add additional calories/protein to my diet since I am now trying to gain muscle, burn fat and not necessarily lose weight? Or, am I taking the same weight loss calories and adding more protein to that?

First you need to be careful. It sounds like you're expecting to build muscle and burn fat simultaneously. While this can happen, it's highly unlikely. The fatter you are and/or the more untrained you are, the greater the chances of concurrent muscle growth and fat loss.

If you aren't in that realm or population, chances are slim that you'll notice appreciable muscle gain and fat loss.

With that said, your best bet is to focus on one goal at a time. If you're content with your level of body fat right now and you want to work at improving your muscle mass, it's time to eat a caloric surplus.

A surplus of calories (energy) is what fuels or facilitates the extra muscle growth. If there is no surplus, there is no growth, as you can't create something out of nothing.

People lose sight of the idea, however, that this is a touch&feel process, big time. The idea is to eat just enough over maintenance to adequately fuel growth while not so much that you are shuttling a ton of excess calories above and beyond what is needed for growth into fat stores.

Make sense?

What are your stats, btw? You may have said them already but I'm too lazy to go back and look while typing, lol.

In any event, slowly ramping up your calories until you're realizing growth is what you want to do.

It's also important to note that anytime you work at adding muscle, there is going to be a corresponding gain in fat. As I noted above though, the goal is to minimize this.

I am 5'6 160-165lbs (it fluctuates within 5lbs each time i weigh myself). I am not sure what my body fat % is as I havent calculated it in a while but I imagine it's about average.

Based on what you said I think I need to decide which to work on first. Fat loss or muscle building. I havent really had too much muscle in my life so I assumed you could do both at the same time. I am thinking losing the rest of the fat is probably the better and easier thing for me to do since it sounds like my current workout routine is geared more towards it. Id say that maybe in a month or so I should be at a comfortable physique to where I can try and alter my training for muscle building.

Right now my routine has been cardio for 40 minutes (usually running or eliptical when I feel my legs getting too much pressure) then I do weights. Usually with weights I do 3-5 lifts on 2-3 different muscles and about 12-20 reps per set. The amount of sets I do depends on the muscle and the weight I am doing. When I finish my lifting I do a small ab circuit with leg lifts, situps, planks and various other things. I try to work all the abs at least a little each time but try to focus a majority on one specific part of the abs each day.

I go to the gym about 4 times a week but I try to make it 6.

I don't know if that helps in determining what I am doing and how I am doing stat wise but it's about as much information as I can think of off the top of my head. :)

Ill see if the nutritionist is available today to tell me my body fat percentage. I have no idea how to determine that on my own.

I am 5'6 160-165lbs (it fluctuates within 5lbs each time i weigh myself). I am not sure what my body fat % is as I havent calculated it in a while but I imagine it's about average.

Based on what you said I think I need to decide which to work on first. Fat loss or muscle building.

Yea, that's pretty much it.

If you haven't lifted seriously before, I would focus on losing fat (caloric deficit) while adding in a good, balanced strength training routine.

There's a good chance you will actually gain some muscle while losing fat. Ride that out until you see noticable changes in your physique. And start bulking (energy surplus) once you feel comfortable with your body leanness.

I havent really had too much muscle in my life so I assumed you could do both at the same time.

Well here's something to think about carrying right along from my words above. As you lose fat and maintain (maybe gain) muscle, you will probably be surprises how much muscle you actually have. People never realize that there is a great, ripped body residing under all of our fat.

And for some, this will be enough to not only keep them content, but also happy.

Once they lose the fat, it's just a matter of maintenance and finding new ways to enjoy the lifestyle.

For others though, like myself, it's a never-ending process of losing fat with a deficit, than bulking up muscle with a surplus until you accumulate *enough* fat that you're uncomfortable, and then cutting down again with a deficit with the intention of losing the new fat but maintaining the new muscle... so on and so forth.

I am thinking losing the rest of the fat is probably the better and easier thing for me to do since it sounds like my current workout routine is geared more towards it.

I would agree.

Though at this stage in the game I think it wise to have a good strength training routine thrown into the mix. And I vaguely remember you having one so you're well on your way. Sorry, I'm actually having this very same conversation on another forum as well as another on in PM right now so I'm getting cross-wired about who's doing what, lol.

Id say that maybe in a month or so I should be at a comfortable physique to where I can try and alter my training for muscle building.

Personally I never put a timeframe on it. I cut until I'm content and I bulk until I'm content. However long that takes, so be it. I avoid rigidity at pretty much all costs.

In addition, I like experimenting. So how I cut down the previous cut probably isn't going to be how I cut down this cut. And how I bulked up the previous bulk probably isn't going to be how I bulk up this bulk. So each time takes a lot of experimenting and adjusting.

That's why I like this lifestyle. It's a game where, if you're consistent and motivated, you always win. And the prize is health and a good body. Can't beat that!

Right now my routine has been cardio for 40 minutes (usually running or eliptical when I feel my legs getting too much pressure) then I do weights. Usually with weights I do 3-5 lifts on 2-3 different muscles and about 12-20 reps per set. The amount of sets I do depends on the muscle and the weight I am doing. When I finish my lifting I do a small ab circuit with leg lifts, situps, planks and various other things. I try to work all the abs at least a little each time but try to focus a majority on one specific part of the abs each day.

I go to the gym about 4 times a week but I try to make it 6.

It would help to see exactly what your split is each day in terms of weight training. In truth though, it's not real important. I can tell you right now I think you'd be better served with something like a total body routine that you do 2-3 times per week. Each day doesn't have to be identical but in each you are hitting all the major muscles.

I'd also suggest dropping down the reps a bit. Maybe 8-12. Which means you can lift more weight. Less reps = ability to push higher weights.

But lifting to failure, regardless of rep range, is not something you want to be doing.

On the days that you lift, I would actually do cardio after. If through diet and lifting before cardio you aren't heading in the right direction, I would look first at your nutrition. Then, if it seems like all of that is completely in check, I would look to see if you should maybe add a cardio session in someplace or change 1 maybe 2 of the sessions.


Ill see if the nutritionist is available today to tell me my body fat percentage. I have no idea how to determine that on my own.

Meh, it's not that important. I wouldn't sweat it.

As per your advice I did weights first yesterday and it was very different. I noticed that by waiting on the cardio until after the weight excercises I was able to lift slightly more weight. On curls I could do 5lbs more per arm. On the bench I was able to add 10lbs comfortably. This could also be attributed to having built some muscle but it felt good either way.

Though at the end of the workout I was too tired to do 40 minutes or cardio so I cut it back to 15 minutes at a slightly higher speed. I had to force myself to get through the cardio but I feel good about my workout lastnight.

The one thing I still have trouble with is getting enough calories. I think I may need to start taking a protein shake or something high in calories each day. Usually, I am struggling to get the last 200-500 calories each day. I eat a lot of really low cal stuff throughout the day but it just isnt enough. I definately notice a difference in performance when I get the calories I need. I dont fatigue as fast and I am much more pleasant to be around.

Overall though, I feel good about what I have been doing. I appreciate the help.

As per your advice I did weights first yesterday and it was very different. I noticed that by waiting on the cardio until after the weight excercises I was able to lift slightly more weight. On curls I could do 5lbs more per arm. On the bench I was able to add 10lbs comfortably. This could also be attributed to having built some muscle but it felt good either way.

When did you start lifting weights?

Also, yea, it's normal to feel stronger when you go into the strength training 'fresh.'

Though at the end of the workout I was too tired to do 40 minutes or cardio so I cut it back to 15 minutes at a slightly higher speed. I had to force myself to get through the cardio but I feel good about my workout lastnight.

This is why, when I'm cutting, I seperate my cardio into different sessions. I usually cut using a 3 day per week total body strength training routine and I'll do cardio on my off days.

Or I'll do cardio in the mornings and lift in the evenings.

Or whatever.

The one thing I still have trouble with is getting enough calories.

How many calories are you shooting for?

Why are you having trouble?

What are you eating?

I think I may need to start taking a protein shake or something high in calories each day.

Protein shakes generally aren't high in calories. Most have 100ish.

Unless you do a weight gainer or meal replacement shake.

Usually, I am struggling to get the last 200-500 calories each day. I eat a lot of really low cal stuff throughout the day but it just isnt enough.

Still interested in seeing what your typical day looks like but here's part of your problem. You eat a large volume of low calories stuff. It fills you up but doesn't provide the energy.

So work in some more fat, that's always the easiest way to bump up cals when you're having trouble.

If memory serves me I think Steve may disagree. But I swear by a post work out shake. I think I get great recovery benefits from it. 1 scoop of whey and 8oz of 1% milk gives me about 210 calories. I chug one within 30 minutes of a WO. If you need to add a few hundred calories that may be a good way to get them. Add a banana and a tablespoon of peanut butter if you want to kick it up a notch.

No, I'm a fan of post workout shakes. I think pre workout nutrition is more important but I too drink a pwo shake. I try to minimize fat intake though (peanut butter) b/c that tends to slow digestion/absorption. This is what you don't want when it's a 'window' of time that the uptake of nutrients is elevated after training.

No, I'm a fan of post workout shakes. I think pre workout nutrition is more important but I too drink a pwo shake. I try to minimize fat intake though (peanut butter) b/c that tends to slow digestion/absorption. This is what you don't want when it's a 'window' of time that the uptake of nutrients is elevated after training.

Yeah, I wasnt clear. I just meant add the PB for taste and calories for a shake in general not as a PWO. I sometimes have that for breakfast. PWO I just do the whey and milk.

Sorry for misrepresenting you. I thought I remembered you saying once that PWO meals were unnecessary if your daily nutrition was on point. I may have misremembered or took it out of context.

Oh, no need for apologies. And I have said that. I don't think they're necessary at all. I'm just a fan, personally, is all.

Put it this way, of my clients right now, only two of them are drinking PWO shakes.

The majority aren't.

When I started losing weight (and joined this forum) I calculated what my daily caloric intake should be. It's about 1700 calories to lose weight. I may need a recalculation since I have lost some weight but I really don't see a need to lower the calories since it is working for me as is. Usually I eat around 1300-1400 calories. I struggle to make that sometimes too.

I can't say what I eat every single day because it it different but it's all pretty low calories. An idea of what I eat on average is grapes, oranges, bananas, avacado, yogurt, turkey, lettuce, wheat bread (at times because I dont like bread much), chicken (I have chicken a lot for dinner), peanut butter, breakfast bars, eggs, milk... things like that. I added the peanut butter recently since it is higher in calories, fat, and protein. I add avacado when I can because of the fat content as well. I try to throw things in to give me added calories but like I said, even then it's hard. I drink primarily water with a glass of juice at least once a day. I am not "strict" on my diet as I still have beer and nachos during football games and such but on average I eat pretty well.

I am wondering if there is something specific high in calories low bad fat that I could eat once a day that would help make up a couple hundred cals.

Extra virgin olive oil.

I am jumping in the thread a little late, but I haven't been to the site in a while. To busy at the gym I guess (I wish!).

I have an injury to the area at or slightly above my right SI joint (been to 3 doctors, none have a clue) and have had an operation to my L3-L4 disc. At 380 pounds, I was already "lifting" enough weight just by standing. Working out with free weights just scared me. As the abs and lower back muscles are the bodies biggest stabilizers and thats where my injuries are, I didn't want to risk it. So for me, I am doing, almost exclusively, my entire workout on machines. As all of the machines have seats, I can take a huge load off of the back muscles when I lift. I will start to add free weights in soon I hope. You can do so much more with free weights and hit the muscles at different angles which is something that machines don't let you do.

And now for what the topic has turned toward, shakes (etc.). About 1 hour before a work out, I like to get a somewhat carb rich meal. My favorite is a sort of smoothie. Its been a few years since I have made one, so the amounts may be a little off (I just bought the ingredients today to start making them again myself).
8oz (1 cup)nonfat yogurt (plain or flavored)
1 small or 1/2 large banana
2oz (1/4 cup) concentrated fruit juice (you know, the frozen stuff in the tube you add water to)
(1 scoop vanilla or unflavored protein powder optional, can be soy or whey)

Post work out I like a protein shake mixed with 8oz of Calorie Countdown 2% milk (less sugars), 4oz water and 1 scoop whey protein powder. I am NOT an expert, but I feel like MY muscle growth was helped by the extra shot of protein, in liquid easily digested form, post workout. After all, your muscles need the amino acids from protein to repair or build new muscle. I was able to keep increasing the amount of weights I was able to lift while at the same time losing weight. Your results may vary.

Which order for the exercise? I always start out with a stretching routine followed by 3 sets of 12 reps on the back extension machine and ab machine. That is usually sufficient for me to get my heart rate up. If not, I will do about 5 minutes on the treadmill. Then I do my lifting. Currently, I do only one type of exercise for each muscle because I am just getting back into it, but hope to soon be doing each muscle 2-3 ways. Being a big boy, my lower body gets a pretty good work out just carrying my fat @$$, so I only do lower body twice a week and even then, I am going more toward high reps than high weight (I can already do 3 sets of 12 reps on the calf extension, thigh abductor and adductor machines using ALL the plates, I don't think I need to build more muscle, just use what I have). Upper body I do 3 times per week and am trying to build muscle so when I lose the weight I don't look freakishly disproportionate. After that I do a minimum of 20-30 minutes on the treadmill making sure my heart rate stays around 70%.

I am NOT trying to step on anyone's toes. Steve is a very intelligent person and can teach you a lot. I am just telling you what works for me.

I'm not seeing what in your post would be considered "stepping on my toes."

I'm also not understanding how you are applying what a 380 lb man with a bad back does to an average size woman with no contraindications?

Not trying to start anything at all... simply curious, is all.

Steve, what would you consider "closer to normal BF%" where a person might start cutting into lean mass with diet?

I'm not seeing what your post would be considered "stepping on my toes."

I'm also not understanding how you are applying what a 380 lb man with a bad back does to an average size woman with no contraindications?

Not trying to start anything at all... simply curious, is all.

You have been a member here a lot longer than I have. There are other forums I am a part of that have nothing to do with weight loss or fitness where if you voice a different opinion than that of a "veteran" member, you get stereotyped as a trouble maker and shunned by the majority of members. That is why I don't want anyone to have the impression that I am getting into an "I am right, you are wrong" type of debate. Therefore, I don't want to step on your toes.

This isn't the first time I have attempted to lose weight. About 7 or 8 years ago, I went from 370 down to 225 lbs in a little less than 1 year. That was before I injured my back. The owner of the gym I went to was a former competitive bodybuilder. He also had degrees in nutrition and athletic training. I followed the same routine from the beginning and it worked just as well at 370 as it was at 225. The only reason I stopped losing weight and soon started the slow decent back into obesity is I thought that a change in lifestyle wouldn't affect me (I thought when it came to the weight I had lost, I was bullet proof). I have no doubt that had I actually continued going to the gym and following the changes in diet that I had made, I would have reached my target weight.

So, what I am applying worked on a 370 lb man as well as it did a 225 lb man who didn't have a bad back. It worked for me then, it is beginning to work for me again, and I have seen other people that the gym owner had on the same training and diet that I was on who were having success. They were men and women between I would say 25-45 years of age and all different sizes. No, it didn't work for everyone. That is why I did say that results may vary.

And as a 371 lb person, sure, there are people here who won't really care what I have to say. I am 100% OK with that. I've seen your photo album. Would I try something different in my routine that you suggest? In a heartbeat. I am happy with my routine, but if you, or anyone else on this forum, had success doing something a little different than me, I would at least give it a shot.

Rocky

You have been a member here a lot longer than I have. There are other forums I am a part of that have nothing to do with weight loss or fitness where if you voice a different opinion than that of a "veteran" member, you get stereotyped as a trouble maker and shunned by the majority of members. That is why I don't want anyone to have the impression that I am getting into an "I am right, you are wrong" type of debate. Therefore, I don't want to step on your toes.

Well those forums suck.

Steve has cred because he has shown himself to be knowledgeable and sincere. Nothing to do with post count.
One thing I like about this forum is the complete lack of concern for post whoring. If you say something that makes since or you can back up......It will be accepted. If you have 1k posts and say something stupid, you will get called out.

Thats how we roll.

Steve, what would you consider "closer to normal BF%" where a person might start cutting into lean mass with diet?

For starters, even when the obese diet, they lose a large portion of lbm. However, they can afford it. Ya see, when someone gains hundreds of pounds, it might look like it's all fat. But it's not. When overfed, we all partition some calories to fat and some to lbm, even in the absence of weight training.

So the real question is at what BF% do we need to start worrying about the lbm that is lost?

It variable for sure. Some people are more genetically inclined to hold on to LBM than others. But when guys start getting down around that 12-15% range and women in the 18-22% range. That's when the body tends to really kick up the survival mechanisms in the body. These are completely ball-parked but you get the idea.

For instance, I have a pretty good feel for my body and when I start using appreciable lbm. It happens to be around 10%, so in relative terms... I'm fortunate.

But what does all this really mean? I think heavy (relative to one's strength) weight training should take place long before the 12-15% range in men and 18-22% range in women. I've never had a woman who needed to lose 200 lbs do serious strength training. But as she progresses to a more normal body weight so does your exercise. It progresses along a continuum from metabolic work (LI cardio, circuit training, etc) to more weight intense stuff (like the typical workouts you see me chat about on here).

I feel like I'm rambling so let me know if you follow that.

You have been a member here a lot longer than I have. There are other forums I am a part of that have nothing to do with weight loss or fitness where if you voice a different opinion than that of a "veteran" member, you get stereotyped as a trouble maker and shunned by the majority of members. That is why I don't want anyone to have the impression that I am getting into an "I am right, you are wrong" type of debate. Therefore, I don't want to step on your toes.

Yup, as Ed brought up in his last post... that's not how this forum operates at all. I post on a lot of forums and I know what you're talking about. But we're all about sound information and applicable advice here.

I've got one of the highest post counts here and you damn well better believe that if I say something stupid, I expect to be called on it.

Not that post count has shit all to do with intelligence, which is easily proved on pretty much any forum you chat on.

This isn't the first time I have attempted to lose weight. About 7 or 8 years ago, I went from 370 down to 225 lbs in a little less than 1 year. That was before I injured my back. The owner of the gym I went to was a former competitive bodybuilder. He also had degrees in nutrition and athletic training. I followed the same routine from the beginning and it worked just as well at 370 as it was at 225. The only reason I stopped losing weight and soon started the slow decent back into obesity is I thought that a change in lifestyle wouldn't affect me (I thought when it came to the weight I had lost, I was bullet proof). I have no doubt that had I actually continued going to the gym and following the changes in diet that I had made, I would have reached my target weight.

Yup you would have.

Unfortunately the 'trap' you got caught in is all too common. Diets, in general, don't fail. People fail the diet.

Diet being a weight loss strategy including proper nutrition and exercise in this case.

So, what I am applying worked on a 370 lb man as well as it did a 225 lb man who didn't have a bad back. It worked for me then, it is beginning to work for me again, and I have seen other people that the gym owner had on the same training and diet that I was on who were having success. They were men and women between I would say 25-45 years of age and all different sizes. No, it didn't work for everyone. That is why I did say that results may vary.

I'm sorry.

I'm dense today.

Tell me exactly what is different between what you're suggesting and what's already been discussed.

From what I could tell you are using machines now in hopes of progressing to free weights as your body allows. You're working in the 12 rep range which has already been mentioned.

I'm just not seeing a difference in what's been suggested above. Although I'm tired and stressed so I'm sure I missed something! :) If you could point me to it, it would be appreciated.

Usually if there's a difference it stands out to me. If there doesn't seem to be from my perspective, then it usually turns out to be hair-splitting which in the real world, isn't going to make a lick of difference in terms of results.

And as a 371 lb person, sure, there are people here who won't really care what I have to say. I am 100% OK with that.

Fuck that.

I don't think anyone will write you off around here simply b/c the scale reads a certain number. Information comes from the brain and I'm WELL aware of the fact that just b/c someone has great knowledge in a particular subject, that does not mean he chooses to or knows how to apply it to himself in a meaningful or consistent way.

I've seen your photo album. Would I try something different in my routine that you suggest? In a heartbeat. I am happy with my routine, but if you, or anyone else on this forum, had success doing something a little different than me, I would at least give it a shot.

The thing is The Routine Mentality straight up sucks. Sure, a plan is required for success. A routine though, lacks flexibility and freedom. It's too rigid. And when people get stuck thinking This is the way you should workout, things get ugly.

I haven't followed a routine since I was in highschool.

I make sure I understand the basic, foundational concepts of the human body and how it responds to stress and rest and I mold a lax idea of how I'm going to get from point A to point B.

And how I originally think this will happen usually isn't how I end up doing it when it comes time to apply the idea.

To boot, I've trained a lot of people. And when you apply The Routine idea over a large population of people, the entire concept becomes even more silly.

I've seen bodybuilders (and they are usually the most retarded, not in all cases, but in most I've seen) fight over the stupidest, silliest, tiniest components of a workout. Like, you have to use DBs instead of a BB. Or you have to hit this angle if you want full development. Or you need to use this rep range if you want X.

All those sorts of statements can be translated in my eyes as "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. I worship brotology."

I'm not knocking you at all. I'm not suggesting you're of this 'camp.' Shit, I'm not even sure how what you were suggesting differs from what has already been suggested previously. I'm just 'ranting' a bit with regards to the hair-splitting mentality so often seen in these types of circumstances where people yap about the small things while totally missing the big picture.

Welcome aboard Rocky.

For starters, even when the obese diet, they lose a large portion of lbm. However, they can afford it. Ya see, when someone gains hundreds of pounds, it might look like it's all fat. But it's not. When overfed, we all partition some calories to fat and some to lbm, even in the absence of weight training.

So the real question is at what BF% do we need to start worrying about the lbm that is lost?

It variable for sure. Some people are more genetically inclined to hold on to LBM than others. But when guys start getting down around that 12-15% range and women in the 18-22% range. That's when the body tends to really kick up the survival mechanisms in the body. These are completely ball-parked but you get the idea.

For instance, I have a pretty good feel for my body and when I start using appreciable lbm. It happens to be around 10%, so in relative terms... I'm fortunate.

But what does all this really mean? I think heavy (relative to one's strength) weight training should take place long before the 12-15% range in men and 18-22% range in women. I've never had a woman who needed to lose 200 lbs do serious strength training. But as she progresses to a more normal body weight so does your exercise. It progresses along a continuum from metabolic work (LI cardio, circuit training, etc) to more weight intense stuff (like the typical workouts you see me chat about on here).

I feel like I'm rambling so let me know if you follow that.Makes perfect sense, thanks for the response.

I really should start working out, but I completely lack the motivation and financial means to do so. I try to get out and get active as often as possible, walking, kayaking, cycling, etc.... but, I really should get over my paralyzing fear of "the gym" and start moving some weight.

I really should start working out, but I completely lack the motivation and financial means to do so. I try to get out and get active as often as possible, walking, kayaking, cycling, etc.... but, I really should get over my paralyzing fear of "the gym" and start moving some weight.

Everyone in the gym is there to do but one thing; Improve something about them selfs. It doesn't matter if your goal is weight loss, muscle building, strength training, or anything else. Every one is there for the exact same reason. To better them self in a way they feel is needed.

Now, you don't have to workout in gym if the cost is a problem. A weight set and squat cage/bench doesn't have to cost that much. Look around garage sales, newspapers, craigslist. There are some fantastic deals to be found.
Hell, even some sandbags, paint cans, 1-5gallon water jugs, and even children can be used as improvisational weights.

You don't need motivation to start. You just need will power. I find that too many people(including myself at times) waste time searching or waiting for motivation to come find them. I say you have to go out and find it yourself.
Just start. Just do it. Simple.

I'm sorry.

I'm dense today.

Tell me exactly what is different between what you're suggesting and what's already been discussed.


No, you're not dense today. I don't think there is difference between what you and I have posted. You had asked how can I apply what works for ,a 371 lb man with a bad back, to a woman who is closer to her ideal weight. I just added that what I am doing now with success is the same as what I was doing at 225 lbs and a good back with success. We sort of went around in a big circle before we agreed that we were talking about the same thing, I think.